Video of William Craig Lane v. Richard Hawkins Debate (Kind of)

Glen Peoples alerted me to yesterday’s Conference where William Graig Lane and Richard Hawkins were part of a six man panel discussing whether or not the Universe has a purpose. Not quite the debate that I’d like to see between the slickest apologist an the planet and the renowned atheist, but there is some interesting dialogue. Like many, I would love to see these two go head-to-head. Slick Willie would dice Hawkins to bits methinks.

From Cult to Christian, The Long Journey Home

Today I stumbled upon another blog of a woman who is chronicling her journey out of religious abuse. I lingered for a while, reading some of her posts…feeling her pain.

There are essentially three types of blogs that I follow. I have found a number of respected Christian scholars, most of whom are professors at one university or another. Of these, I tend to avoid those who are too far extreme either to the left or the right. I also follow a number of seminarians, of who most are working on advanced theology degrees. These advanced students often ask questions that others are afraid to ask.

The last category of bloggers that I like to read are those who have been involved in some sort of cult or “extreme fundamentalism” and are trying to find their way home. Many, but not all, of these spent time in the same cult that I grew up in, Armstrongism.

I read the professors and the academic types because I seek to learn from them. Although I don’t always agree with their conclusions, they delve much deeper into various theological ideas than I will ever find in a Sunday School class. Over the course of the last couple of years, I have weeded down the blogs that I follow to those who approach theology and the Bible with open minds and are willing to ask the same hard questions that I do.

And hard questions I ask.

I think that growing up in a cult will force a person to do one of two things. Either give up on religion completely, or start completely from scratch. I’ve seen a great many who grew up in the cult that I did who did the former, and I was very close to giving up on God my own self. How could I trust anything that any religious leader said when the one that I grew up thinking was “God’s Apostle” turned out to be blatantly wrong on 90% of what he taught?

Fortunately, God never gave up on me, and the day eventually came when I set out to once-and-for-all determine if Christianity’s claims had any validity at all. Through many, many painstaking hours of study and a few heartfelt prayers, I finally determined that the basic claim of Christianity must be true. That is, that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, lived, died on the cross, and was resurrected three days later. And that He did it for me.

However, past that basic fact, I have had to prove nearly every tenant of the Christian faith for myself, and that is still an ongoing process.I had to start from scratch.

Just because a bunch of people came up with a creed or two, or a church committee developed a “statement of faith” is simply not good enough for me. Having been burned, and burned badly, by the Worldwide Church of God’s erroneous “statement of faith”, I doubt that I will ever be able to simply say, “Hey, that’s a great creed, I think I’ll go with it!”

So, as I read through the blogs of recovering fundamentalists, quivering daughters, and cult survivors of all sorts, I realize that it is much the same for all of these people. Like me, most of these have lost faith not in God, but in those who tell us who God is. Quite often, the cult survivors that I run across escaped the cults that they were in decades ago, but are still struggling to find a Christian church that they can feel comfortable in and a pastor that they can trust.

For me, it’s been over twenty years since I set foot in an Armstrongite church, but I know that I still haven’t fully recovered. Of course, I spent a good many years of those two decades in no church at all, and it has only been in the last few years that I really started digging into the Bible in earnest to find the message held within. But that too is often a hallmark of cult survivors.

The shell-shock of coming out of a cult often discourages survivors from any sort of church membership at all. And as I pointed out in a post last year, the experience quite often drives cult survivors into a stance of complete disbelief or atheism.

Perhaps the day will come when I read an account of someones journey away from spiritual abuse and it won’t hit that nerve that is still raw. Perhaps one day I will have, to my satisfaction, proven enough of the tenants of the creeds that I can stop asking so many questions. Perhaps one day I will find myself completely healed from having grown up in a cult, and simply call myself Christian, instead of “a-Christian-who-grew-up-in-a-cult-but-who-is-now-just-a-normal-Christian.”

Apologetics and the "New Atheists", Is There Any Point?

Although the reading of various apologists from C.S. Lewis to William Craig Lane were instrumental to removing my objections about Christianity and therefore surrendering my life to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, I have since wondered how relevant apologetics are in this post-modern 21st century. I have in many ways ‘moved past’ apologetics and focused my studies in Christian Epistemology and various other theological areas such as soteriology, ecclesiology and seeking answers to my questions about how I misunderstood (and probably still do, although hopefully not to nearly as large of a degree) what the Christian hope really is and is not.

At one time, apologetics were really important to me and I wanted to be able to convince others that had struggled with faith and become agnostics or atheists that “Yes, God is real and I can prove it!” But then I ran into the “New Atheists” and soon changed my tune. I watched and read as these militant atheists poked every hole imaginable in many of the things that I had read and studied to come to the point where I was ready to take my leap of faith. I couldn’t believe it when I read them comparing faith in God to that of having faith in some so-called “Flying Spaghetti Monster.”

I have come to the point where I really don’t see much of a point in engaging atheists and trying to convince them of why I believe that God is real and that Jesus Christ is His resurrected Son. My opinion has somewhat become, “Hey, I read the Bible and a whole lot of books about the Bible. I researched my butt off trying to determine if there was a real, valid reason to place my hope and faith in something that I can’t see, smell, touch or hear. I became convinced. If I could do it, so can you!”

Now, I must admit that part of the reason that I came to the point where I currently am with regards to debating atheists is somewhat personal. My younger brother along with the small group of ‘friends’ that I had growing up in the cult of Armstrongism are mostly all now atheists. I wrote a post last summer pondering if growing up in the cult actually pushed many of these second-generation ‘cult-survivors’ into atheism. My brother and several of these ‘childhood friends’ are of the more extreme “New Atheist” category and I had quite a number of disparaging remarks thrown my way after I became enthusiastically Christian. One of these ‘old friends’ even sent me a really nasty private message on Facebook about what an idiot I was for believing in God and reminded me that all of ‘the old bunch’ are now atheists. He then ‘unfriended’ and blocked me on Facebook before I had the opportunity to respond.

With only a few small exceptions, I have refrained from engaging in the discussions on various forums and blogs about the validity of Christianity or theism in general, although I have pored over many of the comments at times. I have also watched some of the debates between various apologists and their atheist counterparts and found myself wondering “What’s the point?” When the atheists start talking about the “Flying Spaghetti Monster”, I find myself rolling my eyes and simply moving on. How can you reason with unreasonable people who are unwilling to actually look at the evidence objectively and simply want to call names and poke holes in any argument imaginable?

Now, I must say that there is a difference in a skeptic and a militant atheist and in the case of the former, apologetics are of the utmost importance. For the wavering and for those who want to believe but have yet to find a concrete reason to believe, the apologist has something to work with. But for the atheist that will find a way to poke a hole in any argument and believes that religion is what is wrong with the world today, is there really any reason to waste time arguing with such people?

I have asked myself if the Apostle Paul of even Jesus Himself would spend a lot of time arguing with some of today’s atheists. I don’t think so. In the account of Jesus’ commission of the seventy (or is it 72?) found In Luke 10:1-12, Jesus tells his disciples to ‘shake the dust off of their sandals’ to those in the towns and villages that would not receive the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. Jesus didn’t tell His disciples to hold a debate with the most argumentative man in town and spend a couple of weeks trying to persuade them. Preach the Gospel and then move on. That appears to be the message to me.

In today’s world of instant access information via the Internet, there is more than enough information available on even the earliest of Christian writings that simply weren’t available to the average person twenty years ago. If a person is really interested in finding out about the origins of Christianity and reasons to believe, it is more readily available now than ever before with just a few mouse clicks. So why debate someone who doesn’t believe? Sure, you can point them to various websites where they can find relevant information, but if they are not really interested in finding God, why bother? I know that some Christians seem to really enjoy engaging in heated debates with the atheists, but I wonder if that isn’t time that can be better used elsewhere.

Did Armstrongism Breed Atheists?

I talked with my brother by phone this weekend, and he told me that he had “got a wild hair”, and decided to look up some of the people that we had gone to “church” with as children growing up in the Worldwide Church of God. He seemed pretty smug when he told me that the three people that he found on Facebook were now, like him, all professing atheists. I’m not sure why he wanted to make sure that that I became aware of their atheism. Was it because my Christianity is making a little nervous?

That the three people that he found were now atheists did not surprise me, but it did make me think a little more about something that has concerned me since I began my search to find out who God really was and henceforth becoming a Christian.

When I began to seriously research God and Christianity, I was all over the place on the Internet and with other reading materials. Anything and everything seemed relevant. I read much about the Early Church, the Protestant Reformation, Gnosticism, Catholicism, Atheism, Cults and anything else that I could find in reference to Christianity and religion. One thing that kept popping up on my computer screen were all of the atheist websites that seemed to be all over the Internet. Many of them seemed to be relatively benign, simply putting forth their views but many more were downright militant. Then, as my research progressed, I found that more and more of the atheists that I was encountering on the internet were previously associated with the “church” that I grew up in, The Worldwide Church of God, or some other abusive religion.

Even though I debunked many of the tenants of Armstrongism (the religious belief system of the Worldwide Church of God and its many splinter groups) years ago, I still read much of the information that I find from former members. I was only mildly surprised to find a great many of them to now be atheists or agnostics, especially second generation adult children who grew up in this cult. Although growing up in the WWCOG definitely left its scars on me and I feel that those scars were a primary reason for my struggles with encountering Christ in a personal, meaningful way, I have never considered myself atheist. I would say though that I was on the verge of becoming agnostic when Christ rescued me from myself and I came to know Him for who He really is.

One website that I stumbled upon several months ago stated that roughly 40,000 of the adult children “survivors” of the WWCOG were now atheist/agnostic. I find that number hard to believe and even harder to substantiate, but I do find that a very large percentage of the Armstrong “survivors” are now either atheist/agnostic or are embracing gnosticism or some other non- or neo-Christian theism. I’ve not researched how many adult children of other cults or cult-like religions professing some form of Christianity have also had such difficulties as adults with coming to know Christ, but I would imagine that the numbers are similarly high.

I can see how this has happened. When a person learns that basically everything that they were taught about God and Jesus was a lie, they tend to have a hard time believing anything at all about God or Jesus. I left home and “The Church” in 1983 at the age of 16 and spent the next eight or so years basically just decompressing from that experience, with very little interest in God or Christianity at all. In my twenties I began to know that I needed God, but basically had no idea who or what He was. I knew that the teachings that I grew up were wrong, but it took many years of reading my Bible as well as other Christian writings to find any degree of comfort level with dispelling the entire doctrine of Armstrongism.

It’s really difficult to accept the fact that essentially everything that you were taught as a child about God and Christianity was incorrect and still retain any faith at all in the God of the Bible. One must first unlearn and disprove all that they were taught as a child and young adult and then relearn what the truth is. It is also very difficult to trust any religious teachers, pastors or theologians to supply you with the truth when the “Apostle” that you grew up listening to turns out to be a false prophet. I can see how becoming an atheist or agnostic could seem to be a much “easier, softer way” than to actually read the Bible and all of the commentaries to come to a conclusive belief in who God actually is and that Jesus actually did come two-thousand years ago to show us how to live and then to die for our sins.

Additionally, I found it hard to believe in a Jesus who loved and cared about me when all that I learned about God growing up was the fiery Wrath-of-God Jehovah who seemingly couldn’t wait to throw all of the sinners into the Lake of Fire (i.e. Hell). Closed, controlling religions such as the Worldwide Church of God and other cults tend to try and control their flock with a doctrine of the fear of Gods wrath instead of embracing their flock with the truth of Gods love. It’s all a lot of “you better do this or else…” instead of “God loves you no matter how many times you screw up.”

My brother once told me that he would rather burn in Hell than to worship an egotistic God with the temper of a three-year-old. I have seen than same sentiment mirrored on many atheist websites. In fact, although he won’t admit to it, I imagine that’s where he picked up the terminology from. Reflecting back on my youth, I don’t remember hearing the term “Grace” one time from the pulpit while I was growing up. Grace simply wasn’t part of the curriculum. In some ways, the God that I was taught about did resemble that ill-tempered three-year-old that my brother was refering to.

Another reason that I believe that so many people who grew up in cults as well as other “closed high-demand religious groups” turn to atheism/agnosticism as well as gnosticism and other “new-age” religions is the proliferation of all of the religious as well as anti-religion websites on the internet. When I first began my search for “the truth” about God and Christianity, the internet was still in its infancy and I had to do the bulk of my research the old-fashioned way by reading the Bible and using some very large and hard to read commentaries like Matthew Henry and Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown. Now, and for perhaps the last fifteen years or so, all one has to do is log on to the internet and you can find any number of people willing to commentate on the Bible. Some of them have some very good things to say, others not so good, and some are simply completely crazy. It can be very difficult to separate the “wheat from the tares” when you are looking for theology on the internet.

Now, I’m not saying that the internet isn’t a very useful tool for someone looking for Biblical truth, but one must use a very high degree of discernment. I pray regularly that God will guide me in my search for truth about him and keep me from straying into potentially dangerous ground. I have found some very enticing websites from people professing to be atheists who gave some very good arguments for their beliefs and in all honesty the whole Gnostic theology has its attractions as well, but at the end of the day, I can thankfully say that Gods grace came through for me. I can see, however, how someone coming out of a cult could be easily drawn into atheism or Gnosticism from simply spending time on some of the websites available and reading some of the publications, both fiction and non-fiction from these camps.

By Gods loving grace I came through the darkness and into the light, but it was a very long and arduous journey. I ended up going down a few blind alleys that turned into dead ends and had to turn back. Coming out of a cult or other closed, legalistic, or spiritually abusive religious group and then coming to know a loving Savior is possible; I did it. It’s not necessarily easy, though. I went through this journey largely on my own, with only God’s loving hand to guide me and a few Christians that I largely didn’t trust giving me encouragement along the way.

Those Christians were as helpful as they could be, but they still didn’t understand how difficult my “deprogramming” was because they had simply learned about Christ and came to love Him. For the most part they didn’t have to unlearn and then relearn Christ the way that I did. I hope that one day I can guide someone through the same path that I came down, but perhaps it won’t be as difficult for them since I already know the road, at least to here anyway.